Marvel Universe

Eternal Padawan · Post by **Eternal Padawan** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:10 am

What's funny is, that's not even Captain America's Mask. What's the symbolism of Frank picking it up and then deciding "Meh. I'll design my own version and wear that instead."

Fucking stupid.

anarky · Post by **anarky** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:54 am

And if he's going to take Cap's place, why continue to use the skull?

It desecrates an icon, both in the real world and the Marvel Universe. If he was going to take Cap's place, I'd think he'd use the same costume or only make minor changes. Frank understands symbolism. Fuck, that's why he wears a huge honkin' skull on his shirt and even has it tattooed across his chest.

BTW, where did Frank's idol worship of Cappy come from? I seem to remember them hating each others' guts.

Eternal Padawan · Post by **Eternal Padawan** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:38 pm

They've kind of Retconned it in over the years. Frank, being a soldier, idolizes Steve. Steve thinks Frank's a fucking lunatic. In Civil War, when Cap was beating Frank's ass for offing a couple of "bad guys" in cold blood who were offering them assistance, Frank refused to lift a finger to defend himself. He just let Cap pulp the shit out of him.

This feels like a bad series of "What If...?" books happening in the real Marvel U.

What if Spider-Man's identity was revealed?
What if Captain America Died?
What if Black Panther and Storm joined the FF?
What if Punisher became Captain America?

anarky · Post by **anarky** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:02 pm

That's one reason I hate retcons. I missed a few years of MU, so I had no fucking clue.

It looks like they should run with every stupid-ass idea. Downplay, but don't retcon. If someone made a mistake, work around it, don't erase it.

I wonder which side of the Registration Act NFL Superpro was on.

Diabolical · Post by **Diabolical** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:06 pm

anarky wrote:It desecrates an icon, both in the real world and the Marvel Universe.

Not to mention what it does to Cap either.

anarky wrote:Fuck, that's why he wears a huge honkin' skull on his shirt and even has it tattooed across his chest.

Tatooed? Where did you see that?

anarky wrote:BTW, where did Frank's idol worship of Cappy come from? I seem to remember them hating each others' guts.

They have gone more into this in the Punisher War Journal #3. They show a young Frank back in boot camp. When Cap tries to train soldiers in hand to hand combat, Frank refuses to hit Cap, which of course happened again in Civil War.
This also ignores Punisher and Cap's first meeting in Captain America #241, where Frank tells Cap he admires him, but get out of his way or he won't hesitate to shoot Cap.

EP wrote:This feels like a bad series of "What If...?" books happening in the real Marvel U.

Maybe the chick from Dallas will wake up soon and everything will have been a horrible dream.

anarky · Post by **anarky** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:27 pm

Diabolical wrote:
anarky wrote:Fuck, that's why he wears a huge honkin' skull on his shirt and even has it tattooed across his chest.
Tatooed? Where did you see that?

Couldn't give you an issue number, unfortunately, but it appeared years ago in Punisher War Journal--the real Punisher War Journal, not this new title. It may have even been one of the Jim Lee issues. Frank's in a tropical location (methinks South America, fighting drug lords, as he is so want to do), and is seen without his shirt in a panel or two, and he has the skull blazoned across his chest in black and red.

Of course, we're talking about a company that can't keep minor details about characters straight on its best days, and that loves to retcon, so the tattoo was probably never seen again.

anarky · Post by **anarky** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:55 pm

Just thinking about the Punisher's history....

It's fucked up.

How much of that do you reckon has been retconned? (Cough, avenging angel, cough cough.)

And something I found that I think is odd: everything complains about comics of the 80s and (especially) the 90s as being worthless. Not monetarily, but storywise. They're "retro" and uncool.

Um, didn't everyone think the 70s non-X characters were uncool several years ago? And, now, where would we be without Cage, Iron Fist, Ghost Rider, and Punny?

And folks were reading them then. Face it, it's adult holdovers and a small handful of teenagers reading them now. Kids don't read them. And, despite what the industry seems to think, it's not entirely because of videogames. Kids still read books, after all, and they're not that much different from comics.

It's funny: non-superhero comics do quite well with serious readers. And the folks making superhero comics are trying to make the titles too "adult." Nothing wrong with a mature readers title here or there. But when there are no "fun" books, except for an occasional one that's so dumbed down as to be unreadable by adults, there's not going to be any new readership.

There's more fanboy wank going on now than there ever was in the so-called dark ages.

And, yes, the late 90s blew chunks. But there were a lot of fine, fine superhero yarns in the early 90s.

Eternal Padawan · Post by **Eternal Padawan** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:11 pm

Whoa, whoa whoa! Who said the 80's and early 90's sucked?

The original Armor Wars in Iron Man?

Cap getting replaced by John Walker, Walker's descent into madness and Rogers eventual return and Red Skull ass beating?

Spider-Man's The AssassiNation Plot by Michelinie and McFarlane?

Whilce Portacio and Mike Baron's run on Punisher?

Silvestri's run on Uncanny?

Sleepwalker?

Y'know, I've been going back and reading some of the "Crap" from the late 90's and UGH yes there is some douchey stuff in there. But there's some decent reading too. it's just , to me, the whole thing seemed uninspiring. Like they were sleepwalking through the entire line.

anarky · Post by **anarky** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:45 pm

Sleepwalker... that brings back memories.

Actually, the funniest thing I read today was on the Sleepwalker Wikipedia page:

Sleepwalker possessed a colorful gallery of mostly original villains, with a new one introduced each issue during the title's beginnings. Some of them could be considered corny even by the standards of their day.

Uh, "corny even by the standards of their day"? What twelve year old wrote that? There weren't many "corny" villains in the early 1990s. Overmuscled villains with too many straps and shoulder pads, but "corny" was about two generations earlier.

The whole point of the villains was that it was a retro title! The premise was almost like DC's Sandman, but it was a totally '60s storytelling style. You have the ongoing story of Rick trying to figure out what the deal is with this green alien popping up in his dreams, but the issue-to-issue drama is totally the "disposable villain of the month" variety.

It was, simply put, the most "fun" comic book of its day. And it has aged rather well, I think. My opinion is that comics were too silly, and have slowly changed for the darker until they're now too geared toward fanboys who just want explosions and lots of death and profanity. From about 1985-1993, the perfect balance was reached. It probably could've remained there had not the companies started gearing everything toward speculators, and chased away a good chunk of the readership.

Another thing I found on Wikipedia, about a Robert Kirkman:

His work for that publisher has included work on a new Sleepwalker series that was cancelled before being published, the first issue eventually included in Epic Anthology #1 (2004). He soon became a mainstay at Marvel, writing, amongst others, Captain America Vol.4 #29-32 (2004), Marvel Knights: 2099 (2004), Jubilee #1-6 (2004), Marvel Team-Up Vol.3 #1-25 (2005), Fantastic Four: Foes #1-6 (2005), Marvel Zombies #1-5 (2005-2006), Ultimate X-Men (starting with issue #66), and The Irredeemable Ant-Man.

So, in other words, this guy almost destroyed two of my favorite characters, not just one.

DB, seeing "Marvel Zombies" on the resume of the douchebag who "wrote" (and I use that word very loosely) the deservedly ill-fated Jubilee series assures me that this isn't one I plan to read anytime soon.

Post by **vynsane** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:38 pm

kirkman isn't worth much on characters that aren't his. "invincible" and "the walking dead" are awesome, and his new "irredeemable ant-man" is funny, too. "marvel zombies" was really great, but i've heard his ultimate x-men is really meh, and i don't follow much of his other stuff at marvel.

Diabolical · Post by **Diabolical** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:03 pm

Cover to Punisher War Journal #8

It's true...
*sigh*

anarky · Post by **anarky** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:11 pm

So he wears that outlandish costume as Punny, and throws on a couple of extra details to make himself Cap, and NO ONE FREAKIN' NOTICES?

This is dumb even by Marvel standards.

Diabolical · Post by **Diabolical** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:25 pm

anarky wrote:So he wears that outlandish costume as Punny, and throws on a couple of extra details to make himself Cap, and NO ONE FREAKIN' NOTICES?

This is dumb even by Marvel standards.

That's because he's wearing a mask.

Ran · Post by **Ran** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:45 pm

Question: Captain America is know for is shield, right? Did someone forget to tell that to Captain Punisher before he grabbed the knife and BFG instead?

Eternal Padawan · Post by **Eternal Padawan** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:54 pm

Yeah how hard would it be to take Cap's Shield away from Stephen Colbert? Frank could do that easily.

And if the other guy has two knives and you have a gun, why the fuck would you get that close to him? Just fucking shoot the guy Frank. I think all the faux-patriotism is messing with your head...