the vynsane asylum

Rollo Tomassi wrote:Does anyone know if they've told the story of the immediate aftermath of the Wayne's murder in great detail.
They've done the murder ad nauseum. And we've followed a young Bruce around the globe training with the best masters in several stories, as well as his early pre-Bat vigilante outings, but what about him between the deaths and leaving on his seven year trek.
I know they've done stories immediately afterward. This is primarily where the character of Dr. Leslie Tompkins comes from and they've also retconned Jim Gordon in as the kindly patrolman.
But what I'm talking about is the moment where he's sitting there thinking 'why did they die. Why was there nobody there to save them.' And from there coming to the decision that there is no such person. But there should be. And then making the solemn vow to be that person.
From that point he wouldve started studying if not preparing physically. I imagine he started studying the law. Maybe his fathers medical journals, etc.
I know he eventually heads off to college and drops out after taking what he knows from it, but there's a long time between being ten(or however old he was when they died) and going to college.
Has that story(or any part of that story) been told. And do you know where.

So I've been thinking about this "story" again recently. The one that hasn't been told.
Here's what I've come up with, roughly.
It starts in the immediate aftermath of the funeral of his parents, and after the legal shenanigans of Alfred becoming his Legal Guardian. Bruce can finally get down to brass tacks about this vow he's taken. But he really has no idea how to begin. He starts by reading the obits every day and seeing how many people die from crime. Then, he goes to the cemetery to I dunno, do research(I was initially having him visit the cemetery to visit his parents. But then I realized they're buried on the grounds at Wayne Manor). Whatever the reason he's at the cemetery and meets an older gentleman who is visiting his wife's grave.
Bruce gets into a conversation with the man, who turns out to be a retired judge who now teaches philosophy and pre law at Gotham U. Bruce asks ifnthe mans wife was a victim of crime, and the man says no, she died of cancer (or whatever). Bruce let's slip about his vow(remember he's like eleven or so). Which turns into a conversation/debate about the merits of what he's trying to accomplish. The gentlemen also suggests Bruce start working out as a way to burn off some of his rage and also because it helps focus his mind.
As time progresses. Bruce keeps returning to the cemetery (and eventually he's meeting the gentleman in other places) and decides he wants to follow in his fathers footsteps and be a doctor. The gentlemen points out that a doctor can't stop crime, he only tends to the victims after the fact and even he's only partially successful. And a doctor can't be everywhere. But he tells Bruce the importance of having medical training.
Then Bruce decides he wants to be a cop. And again the judge weighs the pros and cons of being constrained by the law. But being a Detective is a useful skill. The nature of solving crimes, etc.
Then Bruce thinks about being a lawyer or a politician. Etc. The same thing happens where the judge is playing devils advocate. but suggesting each time to Bruce that these skills are useful.
Then they get into a discussion about vigilantism and masks, etc(this is all happening over the course of several years by the way. Before Bruce left on his world training tour that would take several years). The judge points out the anonymity of a mask can be an act of cowardice like the KKK, but it can also be a symbol, etc.
This goes on and on(if you guys can think of any other 'learning' moments speak up!), and slowly Bruce is formulating his ultimate plan to be trained by the best in everything.
Right before he leaves, he visits the old judge one last time and finds out he's dying. And he probably won't be alive by the time he gets back(or perhaps he finds out after he returns in seven years that the judge died in the interim).
So right before he goes out officially as Batman, Bruce and Alfred visit the Judge's grave and Bruce says something to the effect of
"Everything I've done is because of the ideas and ideals this man planted in me, even if I didn't realize it at the time. If it weren't for him, the Batman as we know him wouldn't exist..."

Then you pan down and the gravestone reveals the judge's name: William Finger.

BOOM! bitches. I just blew your mind. The whole thing is meta textual.

Fuck.

I want Grant Morrison to steal that only so it becomes canon. That is fucking stellar, Rollo, and I'm not just saying that because Rob bought you a hot dog and I'm jealous.

I'd rather have somebody like Alan Grant or maybe Brian K. Vaughan crib it. They could do the idea justice. Morrison would just fuck it up somehow.

Alan Grant doesn't need to come here to steal ideas, though.

Maybe we should embark on an 80s-style comedy caper to somehow sneak this idea into his notes. And somehow put into Breyfogle's mind that they'd discussed this years ago, and "remind" him of it so he brings it to Grant's attention.

Dibs on picking the Cyndi Lauper tune for the montage!!

The story IS canon, it just hasn't been written and drawn and released as an eight issue mini series...yet. It needs a name.

i think without actual batman action in it, it would be more suitable as prose fiction, not a graphic novel or miniseries.

perhaps the judge was a victim of violent crime, and the entire relationship with the judge is told in flashback as batman brings the perpetrators to justice. maybe the judge was always playing devil's advocate as theory, but thought that bruce was misinterpreting that as justification of his vendetta. after the judge was murdered (or whatever) that was the justification that bruce needed to finally put theory into action and truly become batman. after all that time learning and training and possibly rethinking his vow, the judge's death reaffirmed bruce's mission.

also, "Batman: Devil's Advocate" seems pretty appropriate, now...

It sucks. You need to add young Boba Fett in there someplace or I'm not buying it.

I dunno, vyn; a great writer and artist would be able to pull this off in comic form. I don't know that it could go beyond one graphic novel, but maybe it could be longer.

BTW, Rollo, are Thomas and Martha being buried on the grounds of the Manor a DCnU thing? I know they're buried in a cemetery in the DCAU (see Mask of the Phantasm), but I can't recall them not being in the cemetery in the DCU as well.

Upon consulting with the great oracle, Google, I have discerned that both Wayne Manor and Gotham Cemetery have interred the remains of Dr. and Mrs. Wayne, depending on the writer. It looks as if, at one point R'as dug up their bodies to fuck with Batman in some plot, so Bruce moved them to Wayne Manor. But for the purposes of the story, I suppose they could be in the cemetery. Problem solved.

Vyn, I like the idea of the story being told as alternating flashbacks combined with a current case Batman is working on. I don't know if it should be him solving the death of the judge by some violent crime. If only for the reason that it "dilutes" his motivation for becoming Batman between his parents and the judge. It's not really a case of Batman shaking his fist in the air saying "I will use these skills you've given me to avenge you!" Also, there would have to be plausible reason why we've never heard of this guy before. If he was still around and was only recently murdered or whatever, why had Bruce never visited him and why wasn't he part of his supporting cast? Because he'd quietly passed away long before.
I'm just using the guy as the lens to show Bruce during those years. His parents died when he was ten or twelve. He became Batman when he was 26. And from 18 to 25 he was travelling around the world learning Judo and Forensics and snake charming and shit. But the ten to 18 years is a pretty big gap. And kids see the world as pretty much black and white, so showing how Bruce went from this stark B/W vow he made as a little kid to the shades of actually implementing it by the time he was 18 and ready to leave. Other than implying he did a lot of book reading, and maybe had a Junior Detective forensic kit that Alfred bought him, it's never been said.
Also, perhaps having the judge just die like a normal person from cancer or old age or whatevs gives Bruce one final lesson: you can't save everyone. And perhaps give him an ersatz inner peace of losing someone like a parent in a natural way that he didn't have with his own parents. I dunno. Still spitballing. I just didn't want the guy being another reason he wears the cowl. In my mind, his parents murder is iconic reason enough.

anarky wrote:I dunno, vyn; a great writer and artist would be able to pull this off in comic form.

no doubt, but beyond the people who buy it because "oh, that great writer that i like wrote this" or "hey, i buy all the books this artist has ever done because they're awesome", if it has the word "batman" anywhere on the cover, people are going to expect batman to be in it, not just "the adventures of pre- through post-pubescence bruce wayne".

RoIIo Tomassi wrote:Vyn, I like the idea of the story being told as alternating flashbacks combined with a current case Batman is working on. I don't know if it should be him solving the death of the judge by some violent crime. If only for the reason that it "dilutes" his motivation for becoming Batman between his parents and the judge.

[...]

Also, perhaps having the judge just die like a normal person from cancer or old age or whatevs gives Bruce one final lesson: you can't save everyone. And perhaps give him an ersatz inner peace of losing someone like a parent in a natural way that he didn't have with his own parents. I dunno. Still spitballing. I just didn't want the guy being another reason he wears the cowl. In my mind, his parents murder is iconic reason enough.

agreed, it doesn't need to be "another reason" to become batman. i was thinking, though, that between the age of what, 8? 11? whenever the waynes were killed and the age of 20 or so when he finally becomes batman, with increasing levels of maturity and understanding of the world around him, he might have had second thoughts about the vow. having the judge also become a victim would be the push he needed to follow through, the justification of his preparation.

that aside, what of the judge's motivations? obviously, being a judge, he believes in the system. why would he then convince someone to work outside of that system? maybe over time, he saw the same people walk in and out of the courtroom and became disenfranchised. maybe his parents were the victims of violent crime, which led him to seek justice AS a judge, but by the time he meets bruce he realizes it required more than that. or maybe he became a judge and then had his vision of the world fall apart when his wife, or child, fell victim to violent crime - ultimately, there needs to be motivation enough for a man who once believed in the system to convince another man to bypass it.

also, take into account, the vow bruce made was to avenge only his parents' murders, right? once he avenges them, he's done (basically). the judge could prove to be a foil to inspire him to not just avenge his parents, but all victims of violent crime - and beyond that, to prevention of crime.

I like that angle. I was more thinking that the judge was just posturing hypotheticals rather than thinking he was guiding the young man towards a specific path. The conversations they'd be having would be pretty deep for a comic book. I didn't see him as having as ulterior motive, only that he'd 'been around the block' and saw the world as gray rather than a strict good/evil paradigm that a ten year old boy would see it in. He would absolutely be advocating the positives of the justice system as well. Probably why Bruce keeps insisting Joker get locked up so he can escape next week, rather than just doing everyone a favor and putting a bullet in his skull.

But, ultimately, I didn't want to take away from the idea that Bruce made all the decisions and choices that got him to being Batman. the judge just kinda expanded his options and asked the right questions to get him there, but the answers were all Bruce's. It's a tightrope, but I feel the heavy lifting still needs to be done by Bruce for the mythology to stick.

Can't take a screen cap right now, but there's an ad for Zero Month at CBR that prominently features Batman. Pooping. I am quite sure he is relieving himself; I have never seen a picture that is more clearly Batman pooping.

No.

That's obviously Batman trying to poop. Which is a bit different from Batman pooping.