the vynsane asylum

so yeah... since i'm not certain that anyone here reads any superman comics, i'm thinking this thread topic will die quickly, but i was watching 'superman returns' on the train today (thank you walmart $5 bin...) and it got me thinking. clark's a total pussy. i mean, not just the act that he puts on at the daily bugle and shit, but when he's 'normal' and in pain (because of kryptonite) he's completely worthless. has there ever been a story where batman purposefully uses kryptonite to sap supes' powers and teach him to fight through the pain? because i think that would be an awesome story. like, training him with some of the ninja/samurai techniques to fight through the pain and not be useless...

if not, i think i'd like to write it.

I don't think there's been a story like you describe, but there have been a few where Bats uses kryptonite to kick his ass.

I always liked the perspective the animated series (and Justice League) put on it: when not de-powered, Superman has to do everything gingerly. If he even shakes hands with someone using what he would consider his "normal" strength level, he'd rip their arm off.

Sadly, DC is too busy trying to recapture some bastardized form of what made the 70s so silly to actually do a new story.

I should add that I'm pretty sure there were stories where Superman was depowered for one reason or another (or fought someone on his own strength level), and wasn't quite as big a puss as in Superman Returns. I should also add that he was so wimpy in Superman Returns because there was such a massive amount of kryptonite, which was killing him very rapidly.

Green kryptonite doesn't exactly take away his powers, but kills him. He loses his powers as part of the overall weakening effect.

Your idea for training with Batman is a good one. Maybe Superman could lose control of his powers. Not in any way like we've seen before, but maybe he loses them at random times. Then he gets his ass kicked by a couple of hoodlums and realizes he needs something more than what he learned playing football.

anarky wrote:I don't think there's been a story like you describe, but there have been a few where Bats uses kryptonite to kick his ass.

which was the only thing that made me think that a story like that wouldn't necessarily be in-character for batman - he wants to maintain his edge over even godlike beings, so he might not want to teach supes how to defend himself when 'normal'.

I always liked the perspective the animated series (and Justice League) put on it: when not de-powered, Superman has to do everything gingerly. If he even shakes hands with someone using what he would consider his "normal" strength level, he'd rip their arm off.

yeah, that makes sense. therefore, when de-powered, he's not used to using 'normal' amounts of strength for things, hence batman having to teach him how to 'be normal'.

it's kinda similar to a spidey story when he was living in avengers tower, where cap was teaching him and mary jane basic self-defense. spidey generally has enough power and quickness that he can get out of most scrapes on luck and maneuverability, using instinct to guide the way, but cap was like 'instincts get you killed'. it was during 'the other'. he said 'you have all this power, but you don't know how to use it.' basically, i'm thinking the opposite way with the batman/superman training session. it's 'you have NO power, at least not the kind that you're used to. i want to teach you the power that resides within a normal human being'.

Sadly, DC is too busy trying to recapture some bastardized form of what made the 70s so silly to actually do a new story.

the 'new krypton' thing? yeah... although, all-star superman had the perfect balance of silver-age fun and modern sensibilities... it can be done well...

anarky wrote:I should add that I'm pretty sure there were stories where Superman was depowered for one reason or another (or fought someone on his own strength level), and wasn't quite as big a puss as in Superman Returns. I should also add that he was so wimpy in Superman Returns because there was such a massive amount of kryptonite, which was killing him very rapidly.

Green kryptonite doesn't exactly take away his powers, but kills him. He loses his powers as part of the overall weakening effect.

well, yeah, i understand the basic premise of 'green k' and its effects on superman... but it's kinda more about 'fighting through the pain' thing that i'm talking about than simply 'fighting without powers'. the resilience of the human body, especially when one utilizes 'mind over matter' is a great thing for him to learn in order to survive an encounter with 'green k'. being able to drum up the strength from within to escape the radiation zone to get better is a great asset, instead of relying on lois to kick the kryptonite out of the way...

That sounds pretty cool, vyn. I don't think Batman would necessarily have a problem with teaching him, though, since he's got the only piece of kryptonite.

Even if Bats didn't want to, someone like Nightwing (the real one, whether he was the first character of that name to be introduced or not) would be willing to.

I have just about every Superman comic made after 2000 and I haven't gotten around to reading any of them. I paid pennies on the dollar for each one before you start in on me. I know a guy who knows a guy who writes for DC and gets all his issues for free. Those issues happen to find there way into my collection for a small fee.

anarky wrote:Your idea for training with Batman is a good one. Maybe Superman could lose control of his powers. Not in any way like we've seen before, but maybe he loses them at random times. Then he gets his ass kicked by a couple of hoodlums and realizes he needs something more than what he learned playing football.

Batman teaches him karate and he's using it defend himself, and then his powers kick back in at just the wrong moment and he karate chops a dude in half accidentally.

Where's THAT story?

Read Volume 1 of All-Star Superman this morning. Holy balls, that was an awesome read. Truly a "mature" story in the way that most people don't understand is the true meaning of the word. Picked up Volume 2. Honestly, no matter how iffy I am about the whole weird "Batman's son and time travel and Batman Inc" wackiness, between this and his run on New X-Men, I really want to read it (even if I have to tell myself it's not the same universe as the Grant/Breyfogle Batman in order to swallow the strangeness).

anarky wrote:Read Volume 1 of All-Star Superman this morning. Holy balls, that was an awesome read. Truly a "mature" story in the way that most people don't understand is the true meaning of the word. Picked up Volume 2. Honestly, no matter how iffy I am about the whole weird "Batman's son and time travel and Batman Inc" wackiness, between this and his run on New X-Men, I really want to read it (even if I have to tell myself it's not the same universe as the Grant/Breyfogle Batman in order to swallow the strangeness).

Just watch the movie - you'll get the Cliff's Notes version of all the mediocrity.

I take it you did not enjoy ASS? (ASS! Ha ha!!) I'm really quite digging it, and expect to read the second half as soon as everyone leaves.

I still think Morrison needs an editorial leash when working on a mainstream continuity book (or at least an editorial staff who's not immediately going to say "fuck all that Xorn shit!" as soon as he leaves).

All Star Superman was as superb as All Star Batman sucked. And ASB suckethed mightily. It's like they're on opposites sides of the laffer curve.

And All Star Lois Lane is fucking hot. That's right. I said it. A Drawing is hot.

I can actually understand that more. Quitely isn't a realistic artist (and can sometimes get anatomy really wonky), but he's great at conveying emotion and expression. It makes more sense to say ASS Lois is hot than Marc Silvestri's soulless pin-ups of Psylocke are hot. (At least Jim Lee can put some expression into his bimbos, so he's slightly better than Silvestri, even if neither of them have matured since they were twelve and realize women generally wear clothes in public.)

I've heard ASB is a sort of parody that very few people get. From the bits I've read, I can see that. The whole bit about Miller adopting "the goddamn Batman" after it became a meme seems to back that up, too. I really want to read it when it's done; it looks transcendentally bad. Like "Manos: The Hands of Fate" bad, where it even goes beyond "so bad it's good" and becomes a unique piece of art in itself. I read a review somewhere that I can't find now that was breaking it up by issue and several pages long, and I was laughing my ass off, and more at the panels themselves than at the smartass comments by the reviewer.

If it's not a subtle parody, then Frank Miller is completely off his fucking rocker and needs to be locked up.

In hindsight, Miller can say whatever he wants and retroactively call it a parody all day long.
But that was not the original intent, pitch, or marketing.
It was meant to be a quintessential Batman story not bogged down by continuity, written and drawn by the biggest superstars DC could find. The ASSuperman series did that quite well.
The ASBatman. Not so much.

I'm on the total opposite end of the spectrum.

AS Superman was way to vanilla for me. I thought most of it was pretty forgettable.
Intentionally crazy or not, I thought AS Batman was just plain fun to read.

I keep thinking I should go back and reread Superman and see if it reads better together over monthly.
I will say this about the movie version - it looked great, Quietly's artwork brought to life.





And yes, AS Superman's Lois was hot.